An excellent article. I think alot of PL's are under the mistaken belief that big numbers in the squat and deadlift will automatically translate to big number in the C&J and the Snatch, and they often can't understand why alot of WL's don't perform the deadlift regularly. To the untrained eye, the deadlift looks almost exactly like the 1st pull of the Clean, and the back squat looks like the catch phase of the clean and snatch. But as this article, and looking at at WL lifting in slow motion shows, the lifts are different in small but fundamental ways. While I think PL will give you a great strength background it's strength that isn't necessarily well translated to weightlifting.
Phillip Garrison
Mesa Community College
Mesa, AZ
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To: Supertraining@yahoogroups.comFrom: ubermenschsports@yahoo.comDate: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 05:37:23 +0000Subject: [Supertraining] Re: Powerlifting <> Olympic Lifting?
Dave, Apparently you missed this post:This article should provide the necessary insight as to why long termPowerlifters will always have an extremely difficult timetransitioning to Weightlifting and are unlikely to ever be able tocompete at the elite level. Please note the direct references to Henryand Hammand and their totals compared to numerous other heavy weights.From the Russian Weightlifting LibraryConcerning the "Russian Squat Routine"Andrew Charniga, Jr.I have published my translation of the article "Methods of Developingleg Strength" at this time, for a couple of reasons. First, to allowanyone unfamiliar with the origin of this program to see that it wasnot designed for Powerlifting or the brainchild of any "Doctor ofSquatting". Second, to raise the question as to whether this type ofspecialized training for the legs is necessary for weightlifting training.It is obvious from the contents of this article that it is designedfor Olympic weightlifters. The author recommends this program if one'ssquat results are below what is considered the norm; and, it is to beapplied for a specific period of training - the preparatory period.The main characteristic of this program which clearly distinguishes itfrom powerlifting is that unlike Olympic lifting training, the legsare not even involved in one lift (the bench press) and only for ashort range of motion in the other (the deadlift). Conversely, legsare heavily involved in the lifting in both the snatch and the cleanand jerk. So, any specialized loading for the legs in Olympic liftinghas to take into consideration the overall loading on the legs fromthe other exercises and the potential negative effect the hard legwork from squatting would have on the performance of the mainexercises (the snatch and the clean and jerk).Is a specialized squat routine necessary for Olympic lifters?Training the squat is going to have the greatest effect on therecovery phase of both the snatch and the clean. Since the weight inthe snatch is usually about 80% of the clean, the lifter's legstrength in this segment is usually more than sufficient to completethe recovery. So, it is in the clean, where the lifter has to standwith a very heavy weight, that the leg strength that is developed bysquatting is critical.Therefore, it is a logical assumption that if one has difficultyrecovering from the clean, more squatting is needed. The attraction ofthis particular Russian program to the western mind is that, one, itappears to address the issue of a difficult recovery in the clean;two, it conforms to the western notion of gradual change (in this caseimprovement in strength) will be the inevitable result of a uniform,gradual and progressive increase in the training load over a specifictime frame.The basic idea behind this type of program is that each increase inthe number of repetitions per set (from 6 sets of 2 to six sets ofsix) is appropriate; the body is ready and needs this increase inorder for the muscles to respond. The notion that the body's responseto training may take the form of a "Punctuated Equilibrium" is noteven considered.Two reasons come to mind one should fore go employing this "routine":1. Squats alone do not address the technique of the clean.Technique has a significant effect on the bio - mechanical efficiencyof the clean and consequently the effort required of the recovery phase.2. The legs generate the most productive power in weightlifting (orfor that matter in most of athletics) over a relatively small range ofmotion at the knee, hip and ankle joints. The hamstring muscles(within that relatively small range of motion at the knee, ankle andhip, where the lifter generates the greatest forces on the barbell)are not strengthened by squatting.With respect to the first reason, squatting and the technique of theclean, consider the following examples of three outstanding squatters.The author witnessed the Soviet superheavyweight Aslanbek Yenaldievpinned with a 240 kg clean at the 1979 Spartakiade. He tried bouncing6 - 8 times but was physically unable to recover form the squat. Hewas the "champion squatter" among the soviet lifters with a 455 kgback squat (23).According to Leonid Taranenko (11), his best front squat was 300 kgsfor 3 repetitions. Yet, in exactly the same manner as Yenaldiev, theauthor witnessed Taranenko pinned with 250 kgs at the 1983 SovietSpartakiade. It is does not make sense that a lifter would be unableto stand with a weight 50 kgs below his personal best in the front squat.Antonio Krastev (13), had a best front squat of 310 kgs, yet he wasunable to rise with successive 255 kgs and 257.5 kg cleans at the 1987World's Championships.Now, consider the results of two of the world's great lifters in theclean and jerk: Vasily Alexeev and Anatoli Pisarenko.According to Alexeev (1,2, 21) he did not attempt to lift very largeweights in the squat. Indeed, Alexeev uses the following example toshow that results in weightlifting are not dependent on high resultsin the squat. "Look, a lot of guys train incorrectly. They end updoing a lot of work for nothing. For example, Falyev is a 110 kglifter on the national team, who squats with 320 kgs. I have neverused more than 270 kgs. This is a difference of 50 kgs in ourrespective training weights. He clean and jerks 220 kgs and I do 256kgs. So, results in the classic exercises are not determined by thestrength of the legs"(21).When the author asked Leonid Taranenko about Alexeev's squattingweights, he said, "That's about right. He usually squatted withweights that were equal to his Clean and Jerk" (11).Regarding Alexeev's assertion, consider the USA's Mark Henry. He couldfront squat 325 kgs (10). However, his best clean and jerk was 220kgs. Legendary squatter Paul Anderson (1200 lbs in the back squat) hada clean and jerk of about 200 kgs (23). Likewise, Shane Hammon has a230 kg clean and jerk to his credit and has squatted about a 1000 lb.In each of these cases the clean and jerk to squat ratio isconsiderably outside the norm (9,18,20,22) . Their results in the squathad long since reached the point of diminishing returns.Anatoly Pisarenko had a result of between 280 - 290 kgs in the backsquat and a clean and jerk of 262.5 kgs. On this subject of "big backsquats" and "big lifts", Alexander Kurlovich (12), said he witnessedPisarenko miss a squat of 260 kgs in training; only to clean and jerkit 5 days later. According to Taranenko, "if he (Pisarenko) had tostop at the bottom of a clean, he would not be able to get up"(11).This observation by Taranenko, is of course the crux of the issue. Thethree big squatters cited, who were pinned with their cleans, allstopped at the bottom and then tried to recover. Conversely, Alexeevand Pisarenko always employed good technique in timing the recovery inorder to utilize the bend in the bar and the storage of elastic energyproduced by the rapidly stretching muscles.During the competition of the 94 kg class at the 2001 Europeanchampionships the author saw one of the lifters make a very easy 175kg snatch. This prompted the person seated next to me to point - out,this power was due, without a doubt, to his ability to front - squat300 kg. Subsequently, I watched this same lifter, literally screamingto recover from his 207.5 kg and 210 kg cleans. I had to point out tothis same person, that those weights could not possibly be that heavy,for someone whose legs are purportedly, so strong.Let's look at the second reason. The importance of the hamstringmuscles in weightlifting should not be underestimated (15,16). In thesnatch and the clean and jerk the greatest power output occurs in the"explosion" phase (from a knee angle of about 120 - 125 degrees). Thepower the lifter generates in the final acceleration on the barbell(i.e, the work of the quadriceps muscles) is facilitated considerablyby the speed with which the quadriceps have been stretched as theknees shift forward under the bar.The strength of the hamstrings (in performing flexion at the knee) inrelation to that of the quads, is critical to the speed with which theaction of shifting the knees under the bar occurs. Likewise, hamstringstrength (in stabilizing the hip) is crucial as the shins straightenduring the first phase of the pull. So, one needs to be careful not tocreate a significant imbalance in strength between the quads andhamstrings.Therefore, the need for caution in planning a specialized loading forsquats - "A lot of squats adversely affect speed'' (12).On this subject, "A lot of squats adversely affect speed", we askedAlexander Kurlovich about this squat program. The author of "Methodsof Developing Leg Strength", A.A. Zenalov, is from Grodno. This isjust happens to be Alexander Kurlovich's hometown.Alexander knew the coach but was unfamiliar with the program. He hadnever used such a program. Generally, Kurlovich trained with weights10 - 20 kgs in excess of his clean and jerk. His best front squat was280 x 2 kgs (he clean and jerked 262.5 and 265 kgs, only to be turned- down for not having the bar under control) and best back squat was350 kgs (12).He questioned the author's claim that this program had been employedby the number and quality of lifters cited in the article. What isinteresting about the "routine" is that it appears to be in conformitywith the literature with respect to the search for the optimal numberof repetitions per set (3,4,5,6,7,14, 18,20) and the volume of squatsin training (17,18,20).Like Kurlovich, Yuri Zakharevich apparently is between the twoextremes of the examples cited. His best front squat was 250 kgs, doneat the time of his best clean of 265 kgs. His best back squat was 300kgs x 2; power clean 235 kgs; and, snatch from blocks - 215 kgs. Hehas never heard of a "Russian Squat Routine", and he personally, neverfollowed a special program of squatting, specifically to increase hissquat results (24).Without a doubt, squats are the most important assistance exercise.And, someday it may be universally accepted, that after a period ofseveral years of development, only the classic snatch, the classicclean and jerk and front squats will make - up the weightlifter' sarsenal of training exercises (19).However, pursuit of a "big squat" to achieve high results in thesnatch and the clean and jerk, by doing specialized training on thesquat is questionable. In all likelihood it would be better to spendmore time and effort perfecting the technique of the clean and focuson the front squat, which is more specific to the leg strength of therecovery from the clean.References1. Alexeev, V. I., "My training Experience".Tyazhelaya Atletika, 5:13, 19762. Alexeev, V. I., "My training Experience".Tyazhelaya Atletika, 6:28, 19773. Berger, R.A., "Effect of Varied Weight Training Programs onStrength". Res. Quart., 33 (2):334, 19624. Berger, R.A., "Optimal Repetitions for the Development ofStrength". Res. Quart., 33 (3):334, 1963.5. Berger, R.A., "Comparative Effect of Three Weight TrainingPrograms". Res. Quart., 34 (3)396, 19636. Berger, R.A., "Comparison Between Resistance Load and StrengthImprovement" . Res. Quart., 34 (4):637, 19627. Berger, R..A., "Effect of Maximum Loads for each of Ten Repetitionson Strength Improvement ". Res. Quart., 38 (4)715, 19679. Chrenyak, A.V., "Methods for Planning the Training ofWeightlifters" , Fizkultura I Sport, Moscow, p 18 - 23, 44 - 46, 197810. Barnett, W., Personal Communication11. Taranenko, L., Personal Communication12. Kurlovitch, A., Personal Comunication13. Krastev, A., Personal Comunication14. Delorme, T. L., "Effect of progressive Resistance exercise onMuscle Contraction" . Arch. Of Phys. Med. 33:86, 195215. Lukashev, A. A. "Substantiation of Methods of Perfecting SnatchTechnique of Class II Weightlifters" , 1980 Weightlifting Yearbook, pSportivny Press, Translated by Andrew Charniga, Jr.16. Lakashev, A. A., Personal Communication17. Ermakov, A.D., "The Training Load of Weightlifters in Pulls andSquats", 1980 Weightlifting Yearbook, p 34 - 38 Sportivny Press,Translated by Andrew Charniga, Jr.18. Roman, R.A., "The Training of the Weightlifter" Sportivny Press,Translated by Andrew Charniga, Jr.19. Roman, R. A., Personal Communication20. Medvedyev, A.S., A System of Multi - Year Training inWeightlifting" , Sportivny Press, Translated by Andrew Charniga, Jr.21. Ivanov, D.I., "Russkii Ispolin - Vasily Alexeev" Cov. Rossia,Moscow, p - 131 - 141. 198022. Ivanov, A. T., "Squat Results and Their Connection to Achievementsin the Clean and Jerk", Tyazhelaya Atletika, p26 - 29, Fizkultura ISport, Moscow 197623. Demarco, L. , Personal Communication24. Zakharevich, Y., Personal CommunicationSpecificity of training, training program and insufficient speedstrength are the critical differences, just as posited by Roman,Verkhoshansky and Siff.W.G. JohnsonUbermensch Sports ConsultancySan Diego, CA.--- In Supertraining@yahoogroups.com, david kirschen <dkirschen@...>wrote:>> Agreed, and I don't believe that anyone on this board believes tothe contrary. My origional point (and one that was never trulyaddressed) was that Hammon and Henry's WL careers were stunted bytheir lack of training and experience relative to the field, not by PLing.> > Dave Kirschen> New York, NY> > ==============================> > To: supertraining@...: pmg68@...: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:06:20-0700Subject: [Supertraining] Re: Powerlifting <> Olympic Lifting?> > IMO, the best way to prepare for a good WL career is to do WL, andthe best way to prepare for a good PL career is to PL. Both havemerits as a sport, but using one as a base for the other is notoptimal. Phillip GarrisonMesa Community CollegeMesa,AZ===============================To: Supertraining@...: EWHITE@...:Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:31:06 -0600Subject: [Supertraining] Re:Powerlifting <> Olympic Lifting?I'm almost afraid to post on this withsome of the posts I've read, not really, I'm an old Marine and Cop sonot much scares me. No science here just my own experience. I startedout as an Olympic lifter at the age of 14. I was a Missouri StateChampion by age 16 and feel pretty good about my chances of one daybeing a lot more. I think my Olympic lifting back ground directly wasresponsible for my better than average dead lift from day one in powerlifting. Over the years I still have done the Olympic lifts just forsomething different and I felt they helped my explosiveness (such asit is). I must say that as the years of power lifting progressed Ibecame less and less flexible in the areas needed (especiallyshoulders) for the Olympic lifts. This despite my long career inkarate, judo, jujitsu, and the other fighting arts that require acertain amount of flexibility. I also pretty religiously practicedynamic stretching, yoga, and pilates. Most Olympic lifters I know andI do still keep up with it pretty well would argue that the key foranyone being productive in Olympic lifting is having a good coach.Linda talked about Mel being able to correct her OH squat in a veryshort period.My point is that from my point of view power lifting hasrobbed me of the flexibility I need for Olympic lifting. Having saidthat I would not go back to Olympic Lifting because I never had thepassion for it that I do for power lifting nor did I build the powerfrom it that I have from power lifting. I trully believe that for methere was carry over from Olympic lifting to Power lifting but I doubtthe inverse would be true. Still strong is strong and I feel prettyconfident that give me 6 months to train with a good coach and I couldcompete on a National level in Olympic lifting. I throw this out justas an individual example only and we all know there are manyindividual differences.I guess I can't really get what all the fuss onthis topic is about and some of it is a little personal. Let's notforget that Mel brought us all together to share opinions and thoughtsas well as scientific information to arrive at the best conclusions wecan. I think there are a lot of people that don't post on this listbecause they think their thoughts are not needed or wanted but theopposite is true. We need to get back to that and spirited debatesover relevant topics with the idea of promoting knowledge and goodtraining philosophies. At least that's my take but then I could bewrong.Eddie WhiteBlue Springs, Mo. ===========================>
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