Bill,
I think your post here is reiterating the posts on
specificity a little (which was answered and summed up
nicely by Dr. Yessis; Thank you for the advice Dr.
Yessis!). Most people don't realize it but the
technique involved in the Olympic Lifts and the way
the force is absorbed is considerably different then
the common back squat and front squat. In other words
back squatting and front squatting are not going to
make you a great Olympic Lifter, only actually doing
the Olympic Lifts are! But the biggest issue I think
most people on here have had with this post is the
notion that someone who has been a powerlifter in the
past can "never" be a great Olympic Lifter. I
completely disagree with that notion. I agree that
trying to do them congruently is not a great idea if
you want to be great at one or the other (that is kind
of like working on your short range jumper in
basketball when you want to improve your long-range
shooting). Getting good at something is all about how
much work you have put into it, how much time you have
had to do it, how well you do it everytime single time
you do it, and a many other factors which includes
genetics. In this regard I agree with Linda, I am
sure there is many an athlete who could have became
great Olympic Lifters but they chose other sports to
do instead(and that includes powerlifting)
there are also many Olympic Lifters who could have
been great at other sports as well. Imagine a guy
like Alexeev, with a lot of practice, playing American
Football!
On another note I really believe we need to start
defining things and making things clearer in our posts
(and that includes myself). I think Dr. Yessis said
this best in his post:
"In looking over the many posts regarding specificity,
I don't think there will be any "consensus" because
the posts relate to different level athletes,
different periods of training and how experienced the
athletes are, etc. They all have merit but until the
populations, period of training --if periodization is
used-- and the definition of specificity is given,
agreement is impossible. Understand that most specific
exercises should be done in the SPP phase.
Bondarchuk's book Transfer of Training, can also help
explain this."
A basic way for us to do this is by defining these
kinds of things: 1)basic definition of subject (if
applicable), 2)population or level of athlete,
3)period of training, 4)kind of training model
(periodization, etc.)
Things in regards to diet can be similar:
Basic definitions, basic premise of the diet, people
using it, and what are the major goals of the
individual or the diet itself.
Chad Scheitel, MA, CSCS
Minneapolis, MN
--- "W.G. 'Bill' Johnson" <ubermenschsports@
wrote:
> Dave,
> Apparently you missed this post:
> This article should provide the necessary insight as
> to why long term
> Powerlifters will always have an extremely difficult
> time
> transitioning to Weightlifting and are unlikely to
> ever be able to
> compete at the elite level. Please note the direct
> references to Henry
> and Hammand and their totals compared to numerous
> other heavy weights.
>
> From the Russian Weightlifting Library
>
> Concerning the "Russian Squat Routine"
> Andrew Charniga, Jr.
>
> I have published my translation of the article
> "Methods of Developing
> leg Strength" at this time, for a couple of reasons.
> First, to allow
> anyone unfamiliar with the origin of this program to
> see that it was
> not designed for Powerlifting or the brainchild of
> any "Doctor of
> Squatting". Second, to raise the question as to
> whether this type of
> specialized training for the legs is necessary for
> weightlifting training.
>
> It is obvious from the contents of this article that
> it is designed
> for Olympic weightlifters. The author recommends
> this program if one's
> squat results are below what is considered the norm;
> and, it is to be
> applied for a specific period of training - the
> preparatory period.
>
> The main characteristic of this program which
> clearly distinguishes it
> from powerlifting is that unlike Olympic lifting
> training, the legs
> are not even involved in one lift (the bench press)
> and only for a
> short range of motion in the other (the deadlift).
> Conversely, legs
> are heavily involved in the lifting in both the
> snatch and the clean
> and jerk. So, any specialized loading for the legs
> in Olympic lifting
> has to take into consideration the overall loading
> on the legs from
> the other exercises and the potential negative
> effect the hard leg
> work from squatting would have on the performance of
> the main
> exercises (the snatch and the clean and jerk).
>
> Is a specialized squat routine necessary for Olympic
> lifters?
>
> Training the squat is going to have the greatest
> effect on the
> recovery phase of both the snatch and the clean.
> Since the weight in
> the snatch is usually about 80% of the clean, the
> lifter's leg
> strength in this segment is usually more than
> sufficient to complete
> the recovery. So, it is in the clean, where the
> lifter has to stand
> with a very heavy weight, that the leg strength that
> is developed by
> squatting is critical.
>
> Therefore, it is a logical assumption that if one
> has difficulty
> recovering from the clean, more squatting is needed.
> The attraction of
> this particular Russian program to the western mind
> is that, one, it
> appears to address the issue of a difficult recovery
> in the clean;
> two, it conforms to the western notion of gradual
> change (in this case
> improvement in strength) will be the inevitable
> result of a uniform,
> gradual and progressive increase in the training
> load over a specific
> time frame.
>
> The basic idea behind this type of program is that
> each increase in
> the number of repetitions per set (from 6 sets of 2
> to six sets of
> six) is appropriate; the body is ready and needs
> this increase in
> order for the muscles to respond. The notion that
> the body's response
> to training may take the form of a "Punctuated
> Equilibrium" is not
> even considered.
>
> Two reasons come to mind one should fore go
> employing this "routine":
>
> 1. Squats alone do not address the technique of the
> clean.
> Technique has a significant effect on the bio -
> mechanical efficiency
> of the clean and consequently the effort required of
> the recovery phase.
> 2. The legs generate the most productive power in
> weightlifting (or
> for that matter in most of athletics) over a
> relatively small range of
> motion at the knee, hip and ankle joints. The
> hamstring muscles
> (within that relatively small range of motion at the
> knee, ankle and
> hip, where the lifter generates the greatest forces
> on the barbell)
> are not strengthened by squatting.
>
> With respect to the first reason, squatting and the
> technique of the
> clean, consider the following examples of three
> outstanding squatters.
>
> The author witnessed the Soviet superheavyweight
> Aslanbek Yenaldiev
> pinned with a 240 kg clean at the 1979 Spartakiade.
> He tried bouncing
> 6 - 8 times but was physically unable to recover
> form the squat. He
> was the "champion squatter" among the soviet lifters
> with a 455 kg
> back squat (23).
>
> According to Leonid Taranenko (11), his best front
> squat was 300 kgs
> for 3 repetitions. Yet, in exactly the same manner
> as Yenaldiev, the
> author witnessed Taranenko pinned with 250 kgs at
> the 1983 Soviet
> Spartakiade. It is does not make sense that a lifter
> would be unable
> to stand with a weight 50 kgs below his personal
> best in the front squat.
>
> Antonio Krastev (13), had a best front squat of 310
> kgs, yet he was
> unable to rise with successive 255 kgs and 257.5 kg
> cleans at the 1987
> World's Championships.
>
> Now, consider the results of two of the world's
> great lifters in the
> clean and jerk: Vasily Alexeev and Anatoli
> Pisarenko.
>
> According to Alexeev (1,2, 21) he did not attempt to
> lift very large
> weights in the squat. Indeed, Alexeev uses the
> following example to
> show that results in weightlifting are not dependent
> on high results
> in the squat. "Look, a lot of guys train
> incorrectly. They end up
> doing a lot of work for nothing. For example, Falyev
> is a 110 kg
> lifter on the national team, who squats with 320
> kgs. I have never
> used more than 270 kgs. This is a difference of 50
> kgs in our
> respective training weights. He clean and jerks 220
> kgs and I do 256
> kgs. So, results in the classic exercises are not
> determined by the
> strength of the legs"(21).
>
> When the author asked Leonid Taranenko about
> Alexeev's squatting
> weights, he said, "That's about right. He usually
> squatted with
> weights that were equal to his Clean and Jerk" (11).
>
> Regarding Alexeev's assertion, consider the USA's
> Mark Henry. He could
> front squat 325 kgs (10). However, his best clean
> and jerk was 220
> kgs. Legendary squatter Paul Anderson (1200 lbs in
> the back squat) had
> a clean and jerk of about 200 kgs (23). Likewise,
> Shane Hammon has a
> 230 kg clean and jerk to his credit and has squatted
> about a 1000 lb.
> In each of these cases the clean and jerk to squat
> ratio is
>
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